Posts by Deputy Dog

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

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what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

What about all of the letters that did not get put in? Why were they not inspired scripture too?

For the same reasons my letters don't get put in, I'm not an apostle for example.

Why is the King James version inspired, but not the NWT version? Why was it not 'protected?'

Its not about the KJV, NASB, NIV or any other, I'm well aware of scribal errors and problems with translation. I'm speaking of the autographs, (which I know we don't have) and God's ability to preserve His word for his people.

The only ones I would disregard are the ones that are of a different spirit than Christ.

Like... Any examples? I would love for you to give me a scripture you believe is of a "different spirit than Christ".

For that matter, How do you know what the real "spirit of Christ" is, if you aren't sure what real scripture is?

I said that we should agree to disagree a couple posts back, and I meant it.

This appears to be where we are going, and that's OK with me. But...What would you say if we were speaking of two different Jesus'? Only one has the power to save. Right?

I'm just trying to understand.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

I just said that I don't see that all of the letters are inspired scripture.

Ah, I see..., so you "tested" the bible by your spirit, and found it lacking.

Let me guess, the parts that you think aren't expired are the ones that offend you?

Care to offer some examples?

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

The same scripture that we can't understand without the spirit in the first place? (head explodes ) I think we are to test any spirit against the love and teachings of Christ. That seems more tangible and trustworthy, at least to me.

Define "love and teachings of Christ" and where you go to learn about them, without using the New Testament.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Terry

So the guy in the picture is really your husband, right?

Tammy

If the Spirit was teaching all of them, then how can that be?

You are kidding right?

All revelation, in full, or in part, is a gift from God, and needs to be appreciated that way. It doesn't come as a result of a method or a church. The scriptures are indeed spiritually discerned, Paul said that. Jesus said, the scriptures are the very things that testify of Him (not some little voice in your head, see John 5). That was the very point he was making with the Jewish leaders. They were searching the scriptures without the Spirit and not recieving the gift. Any voice/spirit (in your head or not) you hear is to be tested by the scriptures, OLD and NEW TESTAMENT. We don't judge scripture, it judges us.

God gives the gift at different measure at different times to different people. No one has it all, yet the Spirit is teaching all, but to different people at different times.

How can we have so many different denominations... most all of them teaching some truths and some falsehoods?

Denominations are man centered things created by men, not God. They are banners to unite under when impatient, immature, sinful men can't allow the Holy Spirit to reveal truth at the time a place of His choosing. Having said that, I do believe God uses denominations for his purposes. They allow unity of believers at various stages of growth. So, if you are a child of God, you should unite with a church, you would learn and benefit from the experience and they from you.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

He didn't just come to die for Adam's sin.

Paul never said he "just" came to die for Adam's sin. That's the WTS lie! I never said that, nor do I think Nic meant that. What Paul did say was, Adam's sin makes us, or proves that we are, all sinners by nature. Adams sin proves that even before Adam sinned he had no righteousness of his own, he was innocent, NOT righteous. We can't make ourselves righteous even if we could stop sinning, our hearts would still be unrighteous. Faith in Christ, gives us a new nature and a hope in Christ's righteousness.

But Christ is the truth. So anything I test (as in test the spirits) would be against Him, and what He says and does.

The only way you can know what he said or did is through the New Testament, that's the point. The Bible (including the NT) is what we are test the spirits with.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

still wondering

If Adam and Eve are just symbols for all mankind then at what point in history did human sin FIRST come about?

Before that event was all humankind sinless? By definition it would have to have been.

So did all humans sin at the same time in one great mass sinning or just some? In which case where are the descendants of those who did not sin?

Let me be clear, I don't believe that to be true.

This isn't my position so I don't know if I could defend it properly, but, I suppose they could say that the fall is a symbol of the fallen state of All men.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

(Apostle?)Tammy So you doubt Paul's apostleship?

Not once does Christ say, in the bible, that he came to atone for Adam's sin. Not once does he even mention it.

Do you realize what you're saying? So Tammyology has as much authority as Paul's theology? If you can discredit Paul, who's to say Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, or Peter's apostleship isn't in question. How do YOU know what Jesus actually said, if apostleship means nothing? Peter believed in Paul's apostleship, and his writings to be scripture.

2Pe 3:14
Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

From where I stand Jesus and Paul are in perfect harmony. Have you ever considered that?

That is also the theme that other writers continue with... forgiveness of our sins. (those of us who do sin) The rest - this ransom sacrifice - is a theology based on a couple paragraphs of one person - Paul - and not supported by Christ, himself - and it could easily mean something other than what some men have interpreted it as to suit their doctrine.

It was much more than a "couple of paragraphs". Not to mention it wasn't just Paul. As I said before, Peter accepted it.

Why not consider that these words could easily be and have been misunderstood by the WTS, and instead, gain an understanding from what Christ himself said, and even from what other books and letters corroborated.

I've never been a JW, I received this teaching directly from the bible which was around long before the WTS, not to mention the fact that Paul's teachings ARE perverted and "misunderstood by the WTS". So I have considered it. Why don't you consider Paul's teaching as scripture, just the same as the quotes of Jesus, by other apostles. You seem to forget that Christ himself did not write down his own words, so they only carry the authority of the apostles that recorded them.

That Christ atoned for our sins (those of us who do sin).

I'm glad you believe in limited atonement, but, you put a strange twist on it.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

trevor

Because according to the bible, Jesus came to earth to be tortured to death to atone, or compensate, for Adams fall...

That's right... According to the New testament. That could also be said if Adam was merely simbolic, representing ALL human kind (I wouldn't say that, but, some actualy do).

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Nic

Classic 'strawman' diversionary tactic, please reread the title of MY topic and MY opening post! Your slippery attempts at obfuscation don't fool everyone. Now please excuse me while I attempt to wrench this discussion back to it's original intent.

There is no attempt at diversion. I just stated a fact. Just ask designs there are many ways, (some literal, some not) to interpret Genesis. You can even take a literal interpretation of Genesis and reject the New Testament. It's not Genesis that's the problem. I merely pointed out that, you're having a problem with Paul's (New Testament) interpretation, probably because you don't believe you are a sinner.

Surely the central theme of the Christian message is that Christ died to redeem us from Adamic sin. Tammy, DD, is this at least a premise that we can all agree on?

I even agreed with you, when I said:

You're right Nic, if you're not a sinner, you don't need a Savior, you'll live forever.

I'll agree with you, that if you reject and/or don't accept Paul's (NT) interpretation (spiritualized as it is) of Genesis, you don't need a Savior. Christianity falls apart when you reject the New Testament/Christ.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Nic

Posters like Tammy fail to understand the difference between assertions and contentions, as a result they often come across as rude. I'm sure Tammy isn't being intentionally discourteous when she labels us all as sinners in need of redemption.

Just as I'm sure you don't mean to sound self-righteous, when you deny the obvious. This debate isn't about a literal interpretation of Genesis. It's about Paul's statements (spiritualization) regarding the fall of man, like in Romans 5 and 1st Cor 15.

1Co 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I believe Paul see's death (something we all must face) as proof of all being sinners.

You're right Nic, if you're not a sinner, you don't need a Savior, you'll live forever.